Is the Outside World the Anti-Box?

[Poopaphone]

Was talking with wicked about this theory again today, I came up with a new question:

"I talked about "The secret" being a potential power source of ben's "box". I.E. that you strongest wants/needs physically manifest on the island, from peanut butter, to visions of dead loved ones, to spinal surgeries. Hurley and others off island seems to have the opposite effect when they come in contact with the numbers. Why is that?"

[hatch_hermit]

Just like yin-yang symbol, perhaps this power has 2 drives: One which gives and one which takes. And maybe the Island is where these two powers derive from.

I just wonder about Hurley. At first the numbers gave him money, then he lost almost everything. So do the numbers really take away? Or does it just balance it's giving with taking?

Maybe the numbers just expose you to this power and depending on your situation(just like on the Island) it either gives or takes.

[WickedSlip]

you mean, specifically, hurley's "curse" with the numbers...

the swan was laden with the same numbers (both in label and on the computer, obviously), and i'm not sure that the hatch wasn't cursed as well, that dharma's functions on the island were not "cursed".

unless, of course, it is the influence of and involvement with the outside world that make the numbers cursed.

i'm trying to think of examples how the numbers themselves are the cause of the emotional projection (wishes/wants) as we've seen on the island. in other words, how do the numbers have a direct causal effect on anyone's good fortune?

(/me thinks)

[Poopaphone]

I posed the question not thinking the numbers were the cause, but rather the thing that link hurley and (other asylum guy and his partner) to the island.

But... the more you two address them, i started to think more about the #'s as entity not just a connection.

The writers have gone out of their way to highlight the numbers as a "curse". Since they were explained to us in the ARG, I haven't viewed them as anything more than part of the valenzetti equation.

Let's just pretend the island's "secret" like power is true. Suddenly there's an influx of people on the island that think the world is in Peril and are performing drastic experiments to alter mans impending doom. Wouldn't that effect the make up of the island and the outside world enough to force the original dwellers to be Hostile? Would there be a big enough negative effect for the "island" to produce it's on securtiy system? (remember WEAPON from final fantasy 7? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII#Story). Would the concentration of thought and negativity on that sequence of numbers that are thought to mean the exitinction of man cause others horrible 'luck' just to be associated with them?


Plausible? Possible?

[hatch_hermit]

Up until now I always assumed that the Smoke Monster was a security system set in place by Dharma. Yes, I assumed it, but if I thought about it I would obviously come to the conclusion that they couldn't have developed such a thing. The reason I say this is because now that I thought about it I believe that it IS possible that the Island produced it's own security system like any living organism would defend against infection. Those who are threatening to the Island die, those who are neutral live, while those who are symbiotic gain rapid healing(maybe other special powers).

Now the most likely candidate for infection is Dharma. They usurp the Island's natural qualities for scientific use. They are a virus. cue Matrix clip. Perhaps the numbers are an attempt to translate the natural mystical powers of the island into something scientific and usable. And this attempt works, but is flawed(has side effects) just like many of man's scientific ventures. So Hurley's use of the numbers brought him fortune, but the side effect is the "curse." And by extension Dharma is also "cursed." (Just like Wicked proposed)

[WickedSlip]

Up until now I always assumed that the Smoke Monster was a security system set in place by Dharma. Yes, I assumed it, but if I thought about it I would obviously come to the conclusion that they couldn't have developed such a thing. The reason I say this is because now that I thought about it I believe that it IS possible that the Island produced it's own security system like any living organism would defend against infection. Those who are threatening to the Island die, those who are neutral live, while those who are symbiotic gain rapid healing(maybe other special powers).

Now the most likely candidate for infection is Dharma. They usurp the Island's natural qualities for scientific use. They are a virus. cue Matrix clip. Perhaps the numbers are an attempt to translate the natural mystical powers of the island into something scientific and usable. And this attempt works, but is flawed(has side effects) just like many of man's scientific ventures. So Hurley's use of the numbers brought him fortune, but the side effect is the "curse." And by extension Dharma is also "cursed." (Just like Wicked proposed)


i like this... whole big lot. even the idea that the numbers are a mathematical expression of the island's powers, symbolically and physically.

maybe there isn't a side effect of a "curse" or negativity. maybe the numbers embody the island's powers but are a negative form of them. like you said earlier, they are a yin the the island's yang. so it can grant your wish, will, or desire but with a negative application. whereas on the island itself, your wish/desire/will has a positive application?

talking to poop, i started to think that, maybe in their efforts, dharma unearthed the mathematically expression and, in exploiting it, unleashed a negative force just as hurley was told that by using the numbers he opened the box. the countdown and the computer in the swan, were an effort to contain that negative force.

none of that speculation is new, per se. but the speculation is fresh, in light of the perspective that the numbers represent an (almost literal..emp) font of negative energy, an energy that if exploited will expound to proportions capable of making the world fold in on itself.

(or, world(s), as the case may be)

that being said, smokie acts efficiently as a security system to protect the pure energy of the island. maybe smokie "eats" the negative energy in an effort to dimish the well of energy diverted to and expressed by the numbers.

[hatch_hermit]

I'm not sure how to respond so I will just summarize what I think we are saying so far. Perhaps that alone will foster new ideas.

Wicked, you are saying that the numbers, by their invention and use, are a source of negative energy and that Smokey exists to recollect that energy. And that energy seeps out into the rest of the world and if enough of it does then the world will end. (Man's own attempt to save itself results in it's demise.)

I am saying that the numbers are a way to tap the good energy for use, but once used, not only use the good energy but emit negative energy due to their flawed application. And that Smokey exists to eliminate those who tap into the good power of the Island using this flawed method once they reach the Island.

The only problem I see with including my yin-yang thought for your idea is for the yin to exist the yang would always have to exist too, therefore the numbers couldn't be the source if it always existed. Unless we combine our ideas and say the numbers are the way to tap the negative power of the Island. While the Island naturally uses it's good power, man has inadvertantly tapped it's bad power, and Smokey is the Island's physical champion to contain the negative effect it is having on the world.

So, Hurley's use of the numbers opened a conduit to the negative energy causing his "curse." Imagine if more people started to use the numbers for things. How long until the "curses" overlap and the resulting events look like the coming of Armeggedon.

Hmmm....

[WickedSlip]

I'm not sure how to respond so I will just summarize what I think we are saying so far. Perhaps that alone will foster new ideas.

Wicked, you are saying that the numbers, by their invention and use, are a source of negative energy and that Smokey exists to recollect that energy. And that energy seeps out into the rest of the world and if enough of it does then the world will end. (Man's own attempt to save itself results in it's demise.)

I am saying that the numbers are a way to tap the good energy for use, but once used, not only use the good energy but emit negative energy due to their flawed application. And that Smokey exists to eliminate those who tap into the good power of the Island using this flawed method once they reach the Island.

The only problem I see with including my yin-yang thought for your idea is for the yin to exist the yang would always have to exist too, therefore the numbers couldn't be the source if it always existed. Unless we combine our ideas and say the numbers are the way to tap the negative power of the Island. While the Island naturally uses it's good power, man has inadvertantly tapped it's bad power, and Smokey is the Island's physical champion to contain the negative effect it is having on the world.So, Hurley's use of the numbers opened a conduit to the negative energy causing his "curse." Imagine if more people started to use the numbers for things. How long until the "curses" overlap and the resulting events look like the coming of Armeggedon.

Hmmm....

exactly, in a nutshell. BUT... i think the negative energy has always existed in concurrence with the positive. the numbers are a mathematical rationaliztion of that energy. when used, they numbers exploit that energy and it in turn magnifies.

yeah, that's pretty much what i said

so, now that the hatch is gone, and the control is gone, if man access the island and the numbers are again exploited....kaboom.

EDIT: of course, there's no telling if any of this is what poop meant

[hatch_hermit]

exactly, in a nutshell. BUT... i think the negative energy has always existed in concurrence with the positive. the numbers are a mathematical rationaliztion of that energy. when used, they numbers exploit that energy and it in turn magnifies.

yeah, that's pretty much what i said

so, now that the hatch is gone, and the control is gone, if man access the island and the numbers are again exploited....kaboom.


Ok good. I guess I missed your conclusion but found it myself anyway.

Now the hatch. I have a slightly different take on it. Again, I think this is man trying to save itself and causing it's own demise. The hatch was man's original attempt at harnessing the energy of the Island through the use of the numbers. Unwittingly they tapped the negative energy. The Incident happened, perhaps during some initial small scale testing. They determined what they had done and the hatch's purpose changed. It became man's only way of controlling their initial folly.

This is where my thoughts become sketchy and hard for me to organize for some reason.

Perhaps the hatch itself is the immediate danger. It allowed enough of the energy to build up to destroy the world if the button wasn't pushed or the failsafe key wasn't used. But now that the hatch is destroyed, the buildup cannot be achieved currently. Now, if man boldly uses the numbers to try to control the energy again...

To put it in other words. Man created it's own Pandora's box. Then opened it. All that was left inside was the hope that their mistake could be contained. But this turned out to be false hope because what they really needed to do was turn the failsafe key and destroy the box they created which would return the power back to it's untapped state.

So maybe if Hurley gets rid of all his money then the curse will be lifted.

And also it is said that Desmond pushing the button was the most important thing he'd ever done. That's true, up until he turned the failsafe key, because now the world was no longer in immediate threat.

(Theorizing is fun and much more engaging than work. :) )



EDIT: of course, there's no telling if any of this is what poop meant

Haha! It probably isn't.

[WickedSlip]

So maybe if Hurley gets rid of all his money then the curse will be lifted.

what about everything his money touched? everything his money touched is cursed, too. so, everything the money touched must be destroyed? i mena, clucks was, by nature. maybe cluck's destruction WAS nature (the island's) way of destroying the numbers....wait...

ok...now i'm starting to think that the things we deem as evidence of curse might actually be evidence of the island imposing it's powers to limit the use of the numbers and prevent that negative energy from sploding.

now i'm confused. *sigh* thanks, hatch.


(Theorizing is fun and much more engaging than work. :) )




Haha! It probably isn't

really! i haven't accomplished a damn thing today. and where is poop?? he's the one who started this *points Finger of Blame*

[hatch_hermit]

Was talking with wicked about this theory again today, I came up with a new question:

"I talked about "The secret" being a potential power source of ben's "box". I.E. that you strongest wants/needs physically manifest on the island, from peanut butter, to visions of dead loved ones, to spinal surgeries. Hurley and others off island seems to have the opposite effect when they come in contact with the numbers. Why is that?"

what about everything his money touched? everything his money touched is cursed, too. so, everything the money touched must be destroyed? i mena, clucks was, by nature. maybe cluck's destruction WAS nature (the island's) way of destroying the numbers....wait...

ok...now i'm starting to think that the things we deem as evidence of curse might actually be evidence of the island imposing it's powers to limit the use of the numbers and prevent that negative energy from sploding.

now i'm confused. *sigh* thanks, hatch.

really! i haven't accomplished a damn thing today. and where is poop?? he's the one who started this *points Finger of Blame*


Maybe we've actually answered his original question.

[Poopaphone]

hey guys, sorry I'm late to the party...

My view is that the numbers are what the ARG told us they are, principles of the valenzetti equation. The island works as a giant amplifier to your thoughts, so much so, that it can manifest 'real' images and influence butterfly effect occurances to actually deliver what you desire/think/feel. Dharma's preoccupatiion with the #'s - their dissapointment when the experiments continued to yeild the same results, the idea that the #'s equalled extinction...#'s being evil....- eventually rippled and ampliefied so that anyone that came in contact with the sequence in the outside world was "cursed" with negativity and doom.

We're saying a lot of the same things, except my thought is limited to Dharma and their understanding of the #'s meaning. Maybe there is a further explanation of the #'s properties and association to the island, but I'm just running with what DL and CC already gave us.

One thing wicked and I dicussed earlier is the possibility of the Swan being built to test and contain the effects of this negativity. At some point, the Dharma team had to realize the island's amplification of their thoughts (the incident?). So they set up a research station that monitered 2 people who had to type the #'s every 108 minutes, or something terrible would happen. That's a heck of a alot of negativity created towards the numbers. Panic, boredom, fear, futility...ect, all captured in a facility with a giant electro magnet to keep the negativity from escaping.

I dig this theory. It would help explain why the fail safe implodes the complex, the negitivity feeds on itself and surroundings until it existinguishes itself (yes black hole styliee)